This week on ResearchVR you have a chance to catch up with our LIVE episode, where Az analysed FOVE in detail with Jim Preston, Director of Strategy and Business Development.
Last weeks were tought - between our day jobs and preparation of VR@Cebit, we did not have much time for the work needed to deliver you the best quality of audio and information of our episodes. But now we are on track and we have a long list of exciting discussions and deep dives with VR and AR experts.
00:00:13: Podcast today this is a little something special we're not only doing this with our voices like ever usual podcast as.
00:00:22: Went out you don't only have cameras pointing at us but we're actually doing this all live so that our audience know viewers can actually join an and.
00:00:30: Kind of participate as being part of the podcast so,
00:00:34: and with me today is Jim Preston from fove Inc who at one of the OG companies I'd say in the VR space that have a headset here that sitting here hello everybody everybody watching.
00:00:48: Sending so much love thank you my God so this is a headset that has eyetracking and it's white it's going to looks really cool compared to every other had said it's kind of blacks out,
00:00:59: so hello what's up thanks for the info we are one of the one of the older and in this,
00:01:07: someone new for the recent face of er that we've been around for a couple years and that's right so we got we got start back in 2014 and it's just a couple of couple of folks of our founder and Japan.
00:01:18: RC to Arms Australian and they they both researchvr driven by this passion and they wanted to bring eyetracking 2BR,
00:01:26: and that's when you know you could the couple of kids gets and I'm going to make a headset,
00:01:30: I think that's alright I think I'm going to make this before just put a Kickstarter have a half moon the kickstarter be like oh my God make a company.
00:01:45: Bright and and I think there was a lot of excitement from the kickstarter on the.
00:01:50: I'm on our computer is actually our counterparts are German counterparts Chris and Peter hello guys there watching and,
00:01:58: lexigo way there I mean they're actually original backers of okay we don't need you computer I don't know why that was her trigger word,
00:02:08: so there there's been a lot of excitement about though for a long time in and it was originally it's actually backed by Kickstarter yesterday and that's how it all started so,
00:02:18: I think the originally the concept look much bigger than this is and this is I think a 2.0 for or what are you guys call that you had said we call the fove zero because it's a dead cat we won't be very clear and honest,
00:02:29: okay down in and the numbering from 1.02 the day we had the engineering specs it's actually the 4th generation of the hardware so we had an NES one just the same way that you know I can swing thru DK2,
00:02:42: Unifour the CB1 kind of the same thing with us we went through,
00:02:46: are three different engineer inspection this is the one that we settled on in and like every other headset it's a series of trade-offs right I mean,
00:02:53: there's a lot more we'd all love to have done with the pope of but at some point you've got to put it out and work that's why I and so that's why I wanted we call it the phones you only wanted to be very clear,
00:03:03: that you know our audience is the Hardcore VR Enthusiast hits medical folks who want you a fordable eyetracking it's you know artists in your VR game at cruising know that eyetracking coming and they want to go headed that curve,
00:03:16: it's really not for consumers and so that's what you want to be really clear and that's what's with the phone 0 so.
00:03:23: I want to put it off for a live audience you guys can totally ask questions down below we will have a probably like every 15 minutes or so will kind of go into looking at the questions,
00:03:33: I and answering a few a few of them so yeah I mean I don't think too many people have had the opportunity to stay and Iraq with fove themselves cuz I mean.
00:03:44: I don't know I haven't seen you guys at too many at the trade shows as well yeah we've been kind of quiet for a couple reasons one is we can focus on actually shipping which is mine is it the toughest part so we shipped in January.
00:03:55: With their shift and generators are getting the kickstarter backers should have theirs right now also come into the office he the first in line there there might be a few folks that are still serve at the tail and,
00:04:08: pretty confident all the kickstarter backers have their phones now and including folks you pre-ordered as well as we started taking pre-orders in November.
00:04:16: And once you get it out to the public that's when you know you start you really like oh my gosh there's so many different PC setups,
00:04:25: your people have to know a rift and advise writing on the same box and they got like two cards as hell I'd and they're like why didn't you stop work that's not going to be and that's what I think hockey this is now dealing with his just different USB port,
00:04:38: you guys get up and so we haven't been on sort of the the circuit doing the demo stuff like that we're on our feet yes and we have to announce was there and we are GDC.
00:04:48: We had an AMD announcement we're really proud of but it was just shipping this was such a big moment for us so we having a little bit quiet,
00:04:55: but we will definitely making more noise soon and to have more to talk about that's right,
00:05:00: awesome well I want to go to wear audience here and see what live out his not talking people all they're asking if there is on sale already which I guess you just answered,
00:05:10: we are live on Facebook we are also live on Twitch.
00:05:15: We haven't done most of the other things but this is a fun I think experiment where I don't think too many podcast you themselves live,
00:05:23: no I'm not much right now so yeah I got there,
00:05:26: a Barbie Jeep night night says I'm a VR developer an entrepreneur and we using VR with business and he is a looks like he was a backer as well so he probably has his,
00:05:37: that's up by now if he was a quarterback he should if he doesn't give us a shout on the fove Facebook page awesome and I will get that with that eyetracking I tried I tried a few eyetracking,
00:05:51: I think Solutions now primarily back in their research days as SMI weave,
00:05:57: we've used them in the past and now they're actually getting integrated into headsets as well I tried that out at GDC I think I also tried the Toby had tried eyetracking,
00:06:08: you guys are coming from it also a research background that's right so tell us a little bit about I mean what what is eyetracking why would you even want to have that in a headset,
00:06:18: and cuz I'm sure there's a lot of people viewing this that's probably the first time that would research BR so we like to go deep deep into the science behind virtual reality and talk about how it all works and white all matters shirt,
00:06:29: I'm so let me know the last question of why don't matters and you know eyetracking is.
00:06:36: Really the most natural way you can possibly interact with a machine and once you've tried it.
00:06:43: You know I became a Believer when I when I try the phone was.
00:06:47: There's a speed and accuracy demo that we have words basically just as quickly you don't look around you can't shoot the shit just with your eyes and it's subverting milliseconds.
00:06:56: And you're just heard of astonished because you've never had this experience before of being.
00:07:02: So supposedly intertwined with the machine right and you start to release them I got the machine is looking back and make sure and it's just it's to become subconscious,
00:07:11: and that's when you realize that it is a much more natural,
00:07:15: interaction then even touching right so I think smartphone started to take off when we got sore to the touch on touch screens for came along it's just that you know you just look and touch right,
00:07:25: popular eyetracking is kind of the touch mechanic for VR right it's it's it's reducing the level of abstraction of intent right in terms of transferring intent into actual,
00:07:36: action in and it's offered so with mouse and keyboard I guess you have to really think through and terms of moving your hand and.
00:07:44: Zebra easy access into a mouse moving into,
00:07:48: the touch phone itself was like I look at it I can touch it right now with eyes it's like I look at it I selected,
00:07:54: bright you no answer that she's going to be a real Challenge and this is something that we talked about and turning fove and I think a lot of eyetracking experts will talk about it.
00:08:02: We don't believe that eyetracking alone is going to replace sort of user interface is it really the two together supplemental right exactly right so you just as you're not that fast with a controller or keyboard I was incredibly fast when you're typing but navigating a user virtual keyboard is fairly clumsy,
00:08:19: I'm so something for the controller but when you can simply look.
00:08:23: That what you want to slick and then press a button and select and even back out even know if you know you've made a mistake you can back out in right before the interface even update.
00:08:32: We think it's those two things together it's not eyetracking alone because there's a huge challenge around determining intent.
00:08:39: So you know we can track guys we can know where the pupils are we can over the focal plane as we can know what they're looking at what you doing a lot of different things with your eyes right then selected,
00:08:49: cuz I think we have tried to do that I even with traditional 2D interfaces with that stop till I call when you can squint and you can meet us like things.
00:08:57: Those are our natural motions and I think,
00:08:59: if you try to just rely on eyetracking itself to do user interface and user interaction then it starts to become bigger hurdle then you need to overcome intrusive your hands with the dexterity if I ask you something unnatural about an interaction,
00:09:14: it's the strength of it is the natural input right so if you tie two blinks.
00:09:18: Suddenly you can actually select something just your natural blinking case right and to their companies out there that wants her solve this problem where you can do basic like selecting and resizing and you can do like gays motion to things like that,
00:09:31: it will be some of that but I really do think that the future of yarn eyetracking both need with a or an MRI,
00:09:39: I will and will probably involve some sort of be there just your base system or some sort of physical device because you just so much quicker.
00:09:46: And either alone so that's right I keyboard it was just you I was just with keyboards and then they added a mouse suddenly that,
00:09:55: a powerful combination hasn't gone away in like 30 years right that's something about some supplemental interaction.
00:10:01: Fab.com compilation,
00:10:05: with eyetracking I mean I think that's the most compelling experience about it was that it make me fade made me feel like I had the,
00:10:14: the force like from the Star Wars so this is a TDCI tried the SMI demo which is a semis another research company in terms of just paid you a lot of eyetracking,
00:10:24: software and primarily before all of this technology was used by marketers to do kind of market research to do like even groceries grocery store we should try the what do you look on on on the Shelf.
00:10:36: But now when you integrated into a headset that people are using not only for games not only for Enterprise,
00:10:43: you could the part that really impressed me was that I could look at an object in a tent 10 feet away and Seed get highlighted by the fact that I'm looking at it and then pick it up with my you no touch controllers and controllers.
00:10:56: And move it and I like that is cool. I mean that goes beyond Market Research into just games and and interaction and even.
00:11:06: Turn on game non-gaming things you couldn't now have a foot much farther reach than you be able to before so absolutely and I think it one of the early benefits of eyetracking for people that are wondering about like look how is it going better.
00:11:19: In a couple years when all the headsets have eyetracking and we can get the fove YouTube rendering the technical benefits fair but for the user interface I.
00:11:26: Think about how difficult it can be to interact with three objects in VR right now.
00:11:30: Writers as good as a touching in the one bites are and it's good as the other five wants to be as you know Leap Motion with a hand tracking sub 2 millimeter they do a great job there,
00:11:41: imagine you don't RPG where you've got.
00:11:45: Ano storefront full of Jim swords and daggers and Potions at the light right now it's a little bit clumsy right pick out exactly what you want Even and job simulator they can sometimes be the right thing,
00:11:57: eyetracking just look at it right and you and and I think we're seeing interfaces that are now,
00:12:02: the grubbery call Regis her if they get within the proximity of something snap in your hand that's right none of us really want to bend over to pick up any.
00:12:10: And so I think the media benefit for for the UI and ux is.
00:12:15: You know Locomotion vehicle just look at a place and be able to go right to and maybe we won't have to do the throw our son not really sure but certainly with objects in the world just look at it and snap it in your game,
00:12:27: that part is what I think excites me the most cuz I'm not super into easy line interactions try and VR is a huge shape-shift from a lot of other things that we've done.
00:12:38: Eyetracking also brings a few other benefits we've covered a little of this before and other research BR podcast but I think it's it's,
00:12:45: great to hear it from a company does actually doing it,
00:12:49: another is foliated rendering correct you want to introduce a little bit of what that means for people that don't know so after folks or nude of your order this kind of technology to take me,
00:13:00: what's the first thing about there's a rendering technique it's not you need anyone to take your company it's basically a way to draw the scene.
00:13:08: That just renders fully exactly what the user is looking at so because mean you know we do people tracking in our case we know where you're looking.
00:13:16: The phone muted rendering Charles fully that area that you're focused on and then there's sort of a grating fall off so that objects further away that the proof your revision,
00:13:26: are a lower resolution right you are pixels basically then the objects in the center of your vision,
00:13:31: and to be clear about Soviet and really quick one of the,
00:13:36: the fove enables it it simply doesn't it doesn't provide it so there's a lot of other links in the rendering change with things like GPU manufacturers,
00:13:45: cuz we all know they have to try to do some shit work to make the chips more of the pages more accessible and get to the quicker for VR,
00:13:51: but they are right I mean working on an Nvidia and AMD Intel Qualcomm they're all working on their GPS right now because it makes the accessibility of VR4 lower and thanks so much,
00:14:02: better I think I might wear right now work work,
00:14:05: power hungry for gpus on VR and we want it all to run off of our phones that have pretty good GPS at this point like they can stand up to a safer laptop some five years ago produced at accessibility limit I think.
00:14:20: Soviet rendering has a big part in it was so and in and out mention this again for New Year's I mean,
00:14:26: the interesting part about fove and rendering is that are your aunt it's literally making the way your eyes work with a lot of what we are as his isn't as understanding how it works and then trying to make it so your brain does doesn't distinguish it from reality,
00:14:40: and if you notice at the edge of your you have your vision should put your hands on your hands are a lot more blurry and there's a lot more colors that you see but you're I mean,
00:14:49: but you know how you feel when you're walking around the space your brain is really good at filling in those details and so fove you to render it comes in.
00:14:57: Because of eyetracking because of the ability to add both.
00:15:03: Understanding where your eyes are looking at an understanding which part should be super high res and which part of your eye and your vision should,
00:15:10: and so you have to do this at a very hot fast rate writing like if your eyetracking up to run a day let's say at least 90 Hertz to match at least in this play,
00:15:20: Madea's what is the refresh rate of the eye trackers on the fove,
00:15:24: so I mean there's two parts that question so the cameras and sells out a hundred twenty hurts again which we feel is is fast enough to track the sea cards which are the movements of the eyes but your eyes sort of Dart around.
00:15:35: I'm in the refresh rate of the refresh rate of the screen in the fove in it in the fove is 70 Hertz and the reason why it's that is because our screen is 2550 by 1440.
00:15:46: With the century 2.5 k screen okay so we're limited literally by the stream driver.
00:15:50: Right I mean that's what that's what is the bottleneck for us it's not that we don't want to do 90 frames right it's in this case you something so high resolution the time there had to be trade-offs and show,
00:16:00: in this version of fove zero we're Limited at 70 Hertz tone for the sake of the developmental experience that's fine you can still have a satisfying VR experience,
00:16:09: 870 hurts for from a seated and standing sort of experiences.
00:16:13: So you're exactly right description of foliated rendering it it blurs out sort of the training on how you handle it or how you implemented the proof of your vision couple things I want to make clear is.
00:16:26: It doesn't live so what with her beauty rendering does it doesn't actually don't call any triangles and it doesn't sure doesn't change the geometry the scene although,
00:16:35: it can do some basic a loading if it's someone wanted to do that but it's not meant to do limit triangle so if you're in a scene or something incredibly complicated happening.
00:16:45: Kobe the Rings I can help you if you suddenly you're already have a lot of particles in the air and writing so do you smoke or something like that I might have a lot of particles or give away the three tessellated that sort of thing.
00:16:54: I'm so really is about the pixels is it just not ready or not not pushing as many pixels to the exactly and it's,
00:17:04: calling to her pickle try to have and you know here GDC 2017 we will partner with AMD,
00:17:12: and a company called frima Studio up in Montreal the great Partners to ascend and we put together fove eated a render demo running an unreal and it was.
00:17:21: Basically it up depending on what's going on in the scene the framerate of the GP Improvement was at least 30%.
00:17:29: And in some cases up to 100% so is doubling the frame rate so we put a bunch of stuff in that scene put a bunch of Reflections will you know put smoke and particles and stuff like that,
00:17:38: we get the framer down to like 35 with an on switch rendering everything you turn on the phobia the rendering and go up to 7.
00:17:46: Interesting early stages as rendering engine your sort of figure this out those saving.
00:17:51: Are going to get better and better I mean foliated rendering is going to be crucial important to get to what we all want with the price range for a 4K resolution.
00:17:58: Delete all that's what I think it's going to be something that we don't even talk about and Ryan of like how there's so many things that happen on the back end of computers and phones that,
00:18:07: the other huge amazing ants when they were first thought of it so obvious it's hard to demo because when you put on someone and you're not supposed to feel like anything else what are you doing on Mike it's magic looking at the monitor,
00:18:25: vacancy like the relation of the monitor right now,
00:18:29: the person inside it there like 30 seconds and I'm done alright so I'm going to turn to work questions from our viewers,
00:18:36: awesome so this is actually question I wanted to ask as well cuz microwave Brash brought it up when they were doing the oc3d talk he was kind of microwave rushes,
00:18:46: the city of his the head of research Oculus and,
00:18:51: they obviously look at other technology that don't exist and headsets and they and he was going to talking about how,
00:18:57: obviously fove ET track fove you the rendering and eyetracking you are going to be very important but he was like with this is five years away because everyone has such different eyes and heads.
00:19:08: So they haven't implemented that yet that was his reasoning so how do you I guess,
00:19:13: try to average out the amount of different headset shapes I sizes any the person that this question let me see what your name was.
00:19:22: Cecile Eskin Eskenazi she says yeah have you saw that you the headset not fitting small head so can you even try and averaged out and.
00:19:33: California one that's it it's a great point in and Universal Michael a brushes you know a legend and end we recently watched his,
00:19:43: with his talk with with great interest I think is,
00:19:45: the larger Point around three to five years away from really good I tried I think it's true what you the same way that I think we're still a few years away from perfect you know MLP not to language processing right,
00:19:56: Jason Alexa gets things wrong okay Google Cortana they still sort of get things wrong so you get it working hundred percent correct your hundred percent of the time is always you don't a big challenge.
00:20:06: Show me the photos ero we know we don't want to claim that we do eyetracking the hundreds and quickly hundred percent that's simply not true there are plenty of challenges on people who sometimes have Michigan pupils right and not perfectly round.
00:20:20: Or people deeply into eyes,
00:20:22: are people very heavily lidded eyes were literally the camera has trouble actually finding them I would say that's the people that have,
00:20:30: mites on horrible for saying this but like actually because I'm actually part of his like more Neanderthal features and seriously in like it's funny cause I actually do have,
00:20:40: going to 23 and me I have more and Earth all blood than most people do.
00:20:45: We tried it with you like a couple months ago I know I didn't work as well with you.
00:20:51: Do much caveman and member because I can see it just fine but it's not I mean it.
00:21:00: It's obviously just took their certain ethnicities that have a more deeply set off at the bottom because they can't be at the top for things like eyelashes and eyebrows.
00:21:09: I can be a challenge like yeah it's actually I do have long eyelashes as well as which could be blocking the view so you have to do I trackers right one yet RI,
00:21:19: that's right live to infrared cameras and we have a series of infrared emitter what's going on it's there many different ways to do a tracking and I are tracking but we have six very low-powered,
00:21:30: infrared emitters pry they light up the eyes the IR cameras see them and they do at a track the pupils,
00:21:37: so just want to clear it's not you know there's no sir the Blazer in the retina are you that's a response basically you don't even less power than your supposed to and standards,
00:21:48: but yes it's it's to IR cameras that eyetracking,
00:21:52: so it will have to the question which was pets how small is a certainly a charlatan that actually can be fixed easily with.
00:22:01: With things like straps or the phone we had sort of a foam insert here and we can hear change a different side of foam inserts that order.
00:22:09: Be able to use it for it for younger for children to think that people small heads and she was.
00:22:14: Pero I'll pick this up I don't think too many people have seen the fove headset so I might have one in the office now it's a nice plush white I have to say.
00:22:23: Bowman the inside I hope you feel feel even live if you know I'm on par with a with a Revival yeah I got a little bit lighter feels,
00:22:33: essentially the same me now Waits it has three chords much like a live HDMI USB and USB 3 + 3 + 2.
00:22:42: 3 and 2 okay so one for power and one for data entry at the BOK and,
00:22:47: do centers of ipd justments that's I think that's probably one of the biggest issues that people have with Bri how could you kind of account for ipd,
00:22:58: where I guess is there a slide or anything though there's no physical slider it's all in the software because we have to figure out where your pupils are anyway we would like to get to a physical ipd and it's one of the trade-off right that we had to make and,
00:23:10: you're talking trade-offs another thing on mentions eyeglasses so we don't have fishily support eyeglasses with the phone 0.
00:23:16: However with many with mine they were actually work pretty fun but the mind I have no room with glasses I have a low-power prescription.
00:23:24: So it works but we don't want to tell people that and then because really does not 30% of the eyeglasses out there truly won't work either the thick frames and block.
00:23:33: The cameras right never really strong prescription and the IR the infrared lightest is distorted in some way and so.
00:23:40: We had to ultimately just wish it the headset and so we we don't officially support glasses but it does work for live.
00:23:47: Dries don't says that put it on so we wanted to know if you need to loosen up on some of the velcro strap but I know it's just,
00:23:55: it literally out of the box out of the box it's fine for me that she feels really good okay it feels my eyes feel pretty close to the house probably talk speak into the mic my eyes feel pretty close to the lens which.
00:24:09: Actually will increase the fov and that's what I've noticed with the Vive in the rift is that if you distance yourself from the lens then you're just kind of losing out on the peripheral so that's really cool I haven't seen it,
00:24:22: live and tried it on and we had more in a couple months or Foe is wheat we think 9200 pending upon.
00:24:28: 400 hundred ten units many home where does on your face all this fun size,
00:24:33: and and where your eyes are relatives so we can't give a firm fab4 reason you just point it out but not and hopefully it feels comfortable,
00:24:39: and also we wanted you know we one of the cameras really close to your eyes so we could illuminate your eyes and then and see everything and put his possible Kristoff izdebski what's up Chris,
00:24:49: he's asking you if it would support wearing lenses I'm guessing he means contact lenses with like stars or something,
00:24:58: which because I mean it when you're getting a Sailor Moon I personally prefer Ivy from Soulcalibur when I caused by Japanese company one of the few yeah we are Japanese VR company were headquartered in two,
00:25:14: any contact lenses colored lines will be fine unless like I said something we're not coming across.
00:25:21: That's so far I'm going our community house um this is I think,
00:25:27: the view of what's going to be coming with a standard on saving the with,
00:25:32: it wouldn't be our either this year or next year and you guys were the first one that really put it on the map as a prop see you guys on that let's get into the heavy questions.
00:25:44: Privacy right at this is kind of a big question and and it's much larger than they are and I'm eyetracking and this goes into just internet,
00:25:53: technology in general and what and what can be learned about a person how much of their life is online which is everything but this morning and what can be done with that so,
00:26:03: with eyetracking it seems like you there there might be a trade-off between utility witches,
00:26:10: I sat the superpowers and the GPU optimization and everything that you got,
00:26:15: for you know being for a computer being able to look to know what you all are always looking at so I guess what it what's a conversation like on the manufacturing side when it comes to these questions.
00:26:28: Right so let me just start by saying that all of the folks that I know and eyetracking not just fove at OBS MRI Try by first,
00:26:37: everyone that's in this field comes right using from an academic or heard of research background and they come to it with a real sensitivity around this issue.
00:26:45: It's something that currently talk about internally fove and I know that you know it's something that you told me nuts and I have spoken to recently passed the voices of your podcast for Tampa with can't buy.
00:26:56: That's right so you know this is this is important issue that that I think I've been working eyetracking sent it to so I'll start by saying that.
00:27:04: The next up is that the kind of data that eyetracking can give you either directly but also you can extrapolate from.
00:27:13: So things like you know people dilation you can use that to make some educated guesses about what someone is interested in.
00:27:20: Pupil dilation can be misread as well right if you if you going to cognitive load your people's with dialate a little bit but also if you know look at someone you find attractive your pupils dilate a little bit right.
00:27:31: And it could be you know things are in your eyes shake right you make extrapolations based upon,
00:27:37: you're just the are you showing the whole whites of your eyes and you're just around not just the pupils with you to model the entire I combine that with,
00:27:44: knowing where the hands are knowing where their head is knowing where their physical location and BR is right I think you can really extract,
00:27:51: a lot of an hour or let contact let's talk about what's coming down the road after eyetracking just face tracking right with him out facing camera in the Trap but he's out there they're already working on stuff like that in.
00:28:01: And there been some folks on the research side I know what a mighty and other set that have already extrapolated emotions based on you know sort of,
00:28:09: facial mapping just even using a laptop for I am heading out days so there a lot of serious issues that we're going to have to Grapple with.
00:28:16: And as a community in the way I talk about it the way I try to explain this to people I using now Twitter.
00:28:21: So um you know nobody knows where Twitter is I mean the building we know where the building is Tupac's daughter but where is that language take place right so we know that,
00:28:34: you know there's some places the things you say in the bedroom you've never seen the in the in a courtroom.
00:28:39: The things you would say in a locker room that you kind of you would never seen a classroom right to another language has.
00:28:45: The different meanings over or not mean if it's really but sort of different levels of permissibility based upon where it is nobody knows where Twitter is right so some people in the early days of Twitter.
00:28:54: Either they're making a joke the kind of there in a locker room and they made some certain distasteful jokes only to come to find out and actually apparently there a courtroom right so they really kind of destroyed their careers they said something for them they're saying it's up and it's not because I'm the bad person,
00:29:08: but Isaac didn't understand the context we and where is this taking place right,
00:29:13: you know I used to work at with yeah I did it on for 12 years and we always talk about we go to lunch in the car there's a cone of silence writing,
00:29:21: you say whatever you want with in the car on the way to lunch right back to you get back to the co-workers like that understand.
00:29:31: And in a lot of other online social media sort of like forced us to sort over these issues and I think eyetracking and the date of that it represents going to force us.
00:29:41: To make some decisions around what kind of date is help personal is that data and it's really dated we can never had,
00:29:49: to wrap with before some medical data for Jim I think we're all on the same page right so if you had some sort of your pre-existing condition is very private it's when you and your doctor wouldn't want to chance companies doing about that was like that.
00:30:01: The number to be able to get data in real-time that.
00:30:04: And what does it say about you because your eyes are both conscious and subconscious that you do with your eyes that you're not really aware of.
00:30:11: Probably more subconscious and unconscious exactly so,
00:30:15: and I'll give you an example I was raised Catholic and I you a long time ago and I got it I got my three and philosophy.
00:30:22: And it is why I have you on the podcast out over here within this virtual tradition is.
00:30:35: First fault don't count in other words you can have things like you can think something like kind of nasty kind of mean but then you can check yourself you don't know what that's not right.
00:30:44: Right you have the better it the more psychology of it is that you have the series a sort of competing desires are competing interests and and the first when you have you shouldn't be judged by right and I think we've all had that experience of.
00:30:56: You know walking down the street eating a homeless person really hurting disgusting and not the right attitude really checking yourself and and and being in a reflexive on your own attitude.
00:31:06: And I think that buys are going to make this like really clear 1/3 places your eyes Dart to that you're not even aware of right and way that we look at other people.
00:31:15: Let me know your basic gender studies when you look at other folks you me look at a face with a body.
00:31:20: Right and you look at the arms you can look at the Torso with your eyes so we do it around in this triangle what am I looking at,
00:31:29: Antonio Lasik Primal Instinct I'd say of first determining friender flow and then determining like as this right for me,
00:31:38: safety organism the gender of what I'm talking to and what time.
00:31:44: Live in studies that even with with young kids just go through this I've been watching a lot of,
00:31:49: planet Earth to lately for my God I just got to think about humans as you watching that he liked my right and so I think that's just one example the kind of challenges that are coming our way is.
00:32:02: I'm number one that you don't it's Parts unconscious and park conscious number 2 is.
00:32:09: You going back to the question of the kind of data is there is a current School thought that talks about your.
00:32:17: Your vision is an expression of your thinking right,
00:32:20: so I take it you know what redirected walking it's try to go to Philly with this concept and I'll explain it for before news of yours Jernigan,
00:32:30: basically redirected walking as you have a big enough space and you have a VR headset on her even if you have her eyes closed if you walk straight forward you'll probably end up the Leaning the bit and so you can take that concept the are and then,
00:32:43: if you shift where the door is that you're trying to walk to NVR by left a little bit you'll just keep thinking that you're walking straight but you're actually,
00:32:50: Bing curved around so that you can essentially utilize more of the room but getting more distance,
00:32:56: feel like you're walking more substrate and straighter than you would be able to with the just,
00:33:00: dragons of the room exactly bye bye disjointing the user from what's going on in the virtual space in the real space you can get them thinking of walking the straight line The MythBusters episode in this weekend she just can't walk in a straight line.
00:33:13: We can't do it we need the external World walk in a straight line and so one of the concerns right now is that same thing true or false.
00:33:21: Do you really need an external World in order to thinking straight line right so most was probably grew up with a conception of.
00:33:27: Through our mental model is that there's like a person inside her head who looks out their eyes and it sort of speaks about the world has a sort of fun media to direct access to the world.
00:33:37: What turned up is probably not the way we actually think we actually thinking in an extended World sort of in a way that,
00:33:43: they're just imagine like in the old metal gear solid games uvision is a cone right you're part of a larger world you think and you think of the language you thinking and environment right you've got other people to change the way in your how you're spending your thing itself extended.
00:33:56: Chanel Justin same way we know this is redirected walking.
00:34:00: Could there be such a thing as redirected thinking right based upon how weird it would direct your vision how we able to control what you're looking at what you're focusing on what you're paying attention to have so and I think the question the answer that would probably be yes that's,
00:34:13: that is the nature of even Marketing in a sense where let's say you put up an ad with,
00:34:19: with no person in it worse is it of an ad with it with a face and it you're much more like a delicate the face therefore you are kind of changing the way they're thinking at that exact moment we can get down to the.
00:34:32: Picture of the definition of what that means but,
00:34:35: there are ways of doing that and I think that's that's really interesting is is it and it doesn't have to be bad I'm thinking even if you're trying to walk someone through an app and you can understand that no they're not understanding this part of the and not looking at this.
00:34:48: Very definite feature that they should be using redirect them to actually understand how that were in there there's actually distraction therapies that are designed to really screw gauge where people looking at,
00:35:01: and forget with PTSD there are some early early that's been around for a couple years and are not through.
00:35:06: There's someone still controversial is ability to use this herd of distraction therapy around other provision how to get people to focus back on certain but the larger issue is in and you know what I just spoke to around redirected think that's that's down the road cuz and bolts audio involved.
00:35:21: You know cognitive understand as well I think we just need of yard helping this understand how we do spatial cognitive reasoning.
00:35:27: But my the larger point is that eyetracking is going to presenting tiring your challenges and ways we really haven't thought about before and I and I personally feel that,
00:35:36: things that we're being using now like you live you know and user license agreements those are things are really not up to the task,
00:35:43: childhood account for these new technology and you know just to look like in 5 years when we have eyetracking and all the headsets all be tetherless right,
00:35:52: will probably have face tracking a lot of these so.
00:35:57: Petr challenges that I think everyone is thinking about and I think ultimately as a community that are that really has to.
00:36:06: Make it early decision jobs rather wait for legislation to decide for sure and I think conversations are just starting and we would like to have those conversations,
00:36:16: I hear I mean when with that manufactures themselves with a comedian monks itself I would love to hear a little bit of what you guys think about the privacy concerns of when it comes to eyetracking when it comes to VR plus eyetracking if if I got out of there quick,
00:36:31: quick note at the very beginning right now um I think everyone agrees that there's two kinds of data does one there's an on this day that we just we don't know who you are but we're just heard of,
00:36:40: no face upon like a present for your mouth syndrome in his track I think I don't love with Pages they know each other removing your mouth and some of the state is not tied to you as an individual and then there is personalized data.
00:36:51: The three different that's the one we're worried about this we're talking about and I think you'll see in the early days of eyetracking will see a lot of option agreement and,
00:36:58: it's one thing to do just heard of local analysis of eyetracking it's something else to put it onto a server so I think you'll see in their early days.
00:37:06: They're probably going to be a lot of options around using eyetracking for things like consumer insights and user now it's just thought like that the Jeremy osei says Facebook Facebook actually would say I guess that's refers to.
00:37:20: Facebook has a very bad comment a connotation about knowing everything about its users which I mean is this kind of true they really do know a lot and.
00:37:29: If I could have has an eyetracking under what does that mean in terms of advertisers I think what that could mean is that you'll probably get more relevant ads where is what like the byproduct of Facebook.
00:37:39: Facebook's overall over-reaching arm has has has the least felt like in my life I haven't seen it,
00:37:46: affect me too much but I think it's a bit still a concern. Most people at this point are having an even and I think I'll open it up from Beyond,
00:37:54: American politics into.
00:37:57: This is something that is even more than the outside of your butt like what if it's a government like it's a it's a tyrant government that and,
00:38:06: does have a very strong arm and they can collect these the state about their the population and then.
00:38:14: And I'm from and crazy crazy policies around that even if our laws here don't allow for that so that's I think that's a very fine line to be walked and I'm not saying that the Arts is.
00:38:25: Azad only going to blow up in Disney's Tyrant countries but you know how do we even start approaching that those issues and I mean I don't know I want you guys to suggest things I'm very curious to hear,
00:38:37: let us know I think for the issue in the Privacy issue in the misuse by my government.
00:38:45: I need eyetracking is actually not particular unique in that.
00:38:49: We have been giving away a lot of her own personal data voluntarily by longtime in exchange for really convenience it's in some cases small convenience.
00:38:56: Some his tremendous convenience his like Google Maps.
00:38:59: Which are used on a daily basis I think the same thing is going to go by eyetracking you're going to give away date about yourself because you're going to get for example,
00:39:07: you know what we just heard from Alex earlier in the podcast didn't and I have Alex at home and she's and.
00:39:20: She said she's a fairly sort of dumb but in the sense that she just only response when I asked specific.
00:39:26: Sort of like the questions she doesn't anyway react to me right she has no idea the tone of my voice which we love my account I love to like.
00:39:35: Talk smack to her but and she's moving about like where I'm looking and I said she doesn't know you can't accept me for guess it's and I think that eyetracking.
00:39:42: It's going to be coming cuz you seen how many things look at you right now right now and any of my home I have three things that are looking at me on my Xbox one I have my webcam and I think my PS VR,
00:39:54: just right things already looking at me and are these 4 things listen to me just to my home right now 2017 you know just stressed out to the future going to multiple things listening and looking at you.
00:40:04: So they're going to be at their convenience is and trade-offs no the question is do we really want as everyone had a chance to think about it I stopped into this trade say and I'll say this where I don't think it'll be more,
00:40:16: distinct different platforms that are going to be looking at you and more like centralized into one let's a home running a I write that.
00:40:24: With the reason I mention this is caused and any all since a not sure what can be gained by eyetracking movement where a manual piece of saying that I'm not concerned about privacy as long as the info is used.
00:40:35: And my benefit which totally different opposite opinions and I think I understand fove,
00:40:41: but what I'm thinking is that if you want to turn on if you sitting down on your couch at home and you want your lights to turn.
00:40:47: To turn off on before Alexa before all that you could do not have maybe a sibling or spouse or someone that's around you that standing up feel like hey can you turn those off and like you can't might not even look at them you just be looking at the lights in them and then there's a lot of,
00:41:02: intent and extrapolation that happens there for that action to be completed what if we eyetracking whatever headset you're wearing you like look at your lights and your like,
00:41:12: Petr not often that you're actually saying that to the AI and it knows what you're looking at it knows what you're trying to do right and it does it's task a little bit better I think that's,
00:41:21: one simple thing when we talking an AR and Mr as well maybe our is obviously that closed in and something easier use case for eyetracking,
00:41:31: because the entire head citizen close we're in control exactly you know how much light is in there getting your eyes and knowing where you're looking cuz talking in a rendered.
00:41:38: What sometimes. Environment AR is going to presented a different level of challenges because you got day and night time you got Ambien ir and you got the world itself but you're right I think that's it certainly coming,
00:41:49: and you're being able to look at a table or being able to look at me last what is that,
00:41:55: try looking right right now to Google not the type in you know what kind of car is that just look at that car and and and asked what is that,
00:42:02: so I definitely got science one big feature actually that that that really gets mentioned or he hasn't even really been introduced by any of the major eyetracking people is,
00:42:13: the opposite side of security rather than you know being a privacy issues actually you can gain a lot more security of your apps if you don't the type of password anymore but you can actually.
00:42:24: All you have to do is look at me now looking inside your VR headset and since our pupils or irises actually are have like a very distinct,
00:42:33: fingerprints they're built very different even each is different from the other two,
00:42:39: that's a lot better form of identification that even your fingerprint with her so why don't we I mean that could totally be a thing if all these VR headsets have I trackers are you don't really have to type a password anymore,
00:42:52: have you guys going to experimented on that aspect of things I know I feel it was kind of into it when they were first around out now they are acquired by Google sure so the inch well yes around.
00:43:06: Irish tracking you can do user-specific,
00:43:10: action so things like login authentication purchasing and passwords that sorta stuff that you can do that I can't really talk too much about what we're working on next.
00:43:18: That would be a logical extension of what we've been doing and I agree your point about about security it's going to be I think the default way to do security is much safer.
00:43:28: Is anything it quicker and much more friction with anything you have before.
00:43:31: The day of no remembering no.36 long character passwords so that you know only you and Edward Snowden have access to your documents in those days will hopefully be gone in the next few years but yes I do believe that eyetracking can make us a lot safer,
00:43:46: and we haven't even really talked about all the other benefits of eyetracking transmitter the medical side of things we were getting a lot of interest from the medical community.
00:43:54: You're at fove and there's a lot of benefits come from eyetracking it isn't you know it's easy to sort of let your mind go towards the dystopian third of abuses of eyetracking.
00:44:04: And Jim this could be consumer benefits inconveniences but there's a lot of medical benefits as well.
00:44:09: You triggered other people's Alexis when you said the.
00:44:21: Let's go I want to read a couple comments out here Thomas bed dank hey how you doing today.
00:44:27: Because I think eyetracking will even more than fully the rendering the most valuable for getting more information on the user's attention and using it directly to shape the experience I actually I totally agree about that I think having Dynamic apps and dynamic.
00:44:42: Even games Jim Dynamic Instagrams and that basically you just modular design but if you find the people looking for am on the lower right with her eyes never go to the little bit right after a thousand uses,
00:44:54: then then I Jim douche movie ammunition up towards you the famous F pattern which is where we use his heart this can't have been a user interface you should change to adapt to the way the people naturally look at a scene I'm so so the saccade pattern,
00:45:06: you know the basically when your eyes such a scene you typically searching for something in particular and less you just have to be scanning it,
00:45:13: and we can extrapolate just we're sick on patterns you kind of with your intention was for that see now and so if there are things that we know we're asking you to do something or tits with an RPG experience or or narrative experience.
00:45:24: You could set up and you can change the lighting a certain way so it's just order direct guys around the scene.
00:45:30: So we can customize imagine especially for horror the horror games that he was a big challenge for for the holes on the right now if you are this is,
00:45:40: being able to adapt to give you some people very sensitive and they have quite traumatic experience in some of these really horror games others are much more,
00:45:48: so desensitized to her ordinary actually enjoy it,
00:45:52: I think and that's what I've experienced you can you don't bring music and bring the light up slow things down or some like that I didn't make it more intense right the other person's bored of her eyes are just looking around and looking at things that you really didn't want them to look at,
00:46:04: then you could dynamically you know,
00:46:05: termites or cause a sound or something like that I would say it's it's literally equivalent to having like a person because persons are essentially.
00:46:14: And like eyetracking right like I know where you're looking I know what your intentions are I know if you're into something or not and,
00:46:22: if you personalize it looks a and a pond experience aren't even an AI then they have those same capabilities understanding your contacts in your intent,
00:46:30: and so the applications eyetracking art like the cool things that it's going to be bringing up I think we haven't even covered we don't even know like I am wondering what's going to happen to the Eastport.
00:46:42: USPS Community right of what about soda if you can if you don't even have to go to the you know the,
00:46:49: the really great players have to do first to the acquisition identification and then it's a whole like steps that you took our time with him like.
00:46:56: You have a second the really good place to get these light headshots off now the most players can base of the requisition with look at.
00:47:02: Like what you're going to do OverWatch when everyone's playing McCree and just mr. a not perfect but I don't exaggerate but it is going to change the way you don't of John is actually played,
00:47:12: and I don't know what it's going to do to the competitive see what are you I mean my first reaction is that no they wouldn't allow eyetracking says like there is,
00:47:21: the whole point of the of the competitiveness is how fast your fingers and I went over there it seems right now that are training with him,
00:47:27: oh really tell me more I didn't know anything more about,
00:47:36: Bright House and she decided to just that and not actually changed again the dent dynamics of the sword itself it's it's more about like,
00:47:44: actually seen how fast your reaction time able to measure your ability and your ability to do so but which had gotten all this other stuff and how you like skin around and I'm looking for dangerous and it's other stuff.
00:47:55: Tony eyetracking for something they already using it and kind of their practice mode, so you know really interested to see how it changes Shooters really interested to see how it changes RPGs,
00:48:05: any magic characters with know if you're looking at their weapon or I know I would love to see Mass Effect with eyetracking where you have all of these interactions where.
00:48:13: You know that the Krogan notes that you know I'm wearing,
00:48:17: and any nails if you're going to go with the aggressive to be attracted to the yeah.
00:48:31: The different races so yeah we have no idea how eyetracking is going to affect all of the genres how to make RTS it would be quicker for me.
00:48:40: Found my skills are rusting but the yeah you're right we don't have any idea what's going on it's been a fascinating conversation actually want to go through in like 3 days after the fact as well we were.
00:48:52: Traffic in post-season they shown as in terms of the comments and people but thank you everybody for watching for our first kind of live podcast for and we should be outside right.
00:49:01: Jim thank you for joining us was my pleasure thanks for having me thanks everyone for all these great questions I thought it was really really fun how can people find you.
00:49:10: So fo his word www.getquell.com we're taking orders right now I'm obviously run run Twitter is well and and and Facebook all the regular places this is what you would be getting,
00:49:21: yes you were at the fove zero they were shipping out I was here does it come with controllers I don't have no we do not control this is another thing of like do we want to support this in and does she get some.
00:49:31: We the rift style positional tracking so it comes with that eyetracking I run and then an extra sponge and that's working but it's $600,
00:49:37: the roughly competitive you know kind of the same window with her after the five and USD came we got we got some prototypes into and stuff out there so,
00:49:47: right now he's going to get out to people to have the developer start making really cool stuff.
00:49:51: And how can people reach you specifically if they want to talk more about philosophy and eyetracking probably email me directly at Jim. Preston at fove - inc.com very cool well.
00:50:02: Take a Jim again for letting me know and I will see you guys next time thanks everybody for joining in.